The guest of this edition of the Kitabistan Peace Initiative is Melissa Parke, Executive Director of the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons (ICAN), which was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2017.

This year marks the 80th anniversary of the creation and first use of nuclear weapons - a threat that continues to endanger all of humanity. Eighty years ago, the first nuclear weapon was tested in New Mexico, and later that same year, the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki revealed the deadly face of this weapon to the entire humanity.

During my conversation with her, it was impossible not to feel her deep concern for the future of humanity. Yet, inspired by the words of Margaret Mead, she reminded us that “a small group of committed citizens can change the world.”

Kitabistan presents to you the exclusive interview with Melissa Parke, the Executive Director of ICAN.

It should be noted that Melissa Parke was a Member of the Australian Parliament from 2007 to 2016 and served as Australia's Minister for International Development in 2013.

- Madam Melissa Parke, first of all, thank you very much for taking your time to this interview for the Kitabistan Peace Initiative. At a time when nuclear threats are on the rise, since its first use in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, and the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, this conversation with you is especially meaningful. And I truly hope that through this interview, more people will become aware of the danger of nuclear proliferation, and that for the future of humanity, we will contribute, if only in a small way, to the global efforts for the elimination of nuclear weapons.

In January 2025, this year, to sound the alarm of global catastrophe, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists moved the Doomsday Clock one second closer, setting it to 89 seconds to midnight. This is the closest it has been to the brink of nuclear danger since the Cold War era. What is striking is that the parties of the recent conflicts are mainly nuclear armed states. For example, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, conflict between India and Pakistan, and most recently, Iran and Israel. And these developments mark a critical moment in the global nuclear weapons context. My question is, how does ICAN interpret these recent events, and what steps does the organization plan to take next to further promote nuclear disarmament?

- Thank you, Malak. Yes, as you have identified, this is an extremely volatile and dangerous time for our world. The level of nuclear risk has never been higher. The Doomsday Clock was inaugurated in 1947, and this year, the scientists assessed that the risk has never been higher than now, which is why they set the clock to 89 seconds to midnight. This is an issue that I am sure that your viewers will be aware of. Because, as you mentioned, there are a number of conflicts going on involving nuclear-armed states right now. Nuclear threats have been made in those contexts. There has been an almost complete breakdown in arms control agreements. Rising tensions as well in other parts of the world, like the Korean Peninsula, and a new nuclear arms race underway. And there has been a lot of irresponsible talk about more countries acquiring nuclear weapons. Even hearing talk about tactical nuclear weapons as being potentially used.

Well, we should remember that the two nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki 80 years ago this year, which killed a quarter of a million people and injured many more. Those impacts are ongoing, intergenerational radiation impacts. Those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be today considered tactical nuclear weapons. So, bombs are much bigger than they were back in 1945, much more powerful. And the latest science coming out from Nature Food magazine in 2022 shows that even a limited nuclear war, say between India and Pakistan, would not only kill millions of people outright through burns, blasts and radiation, but it would also send enormous amounts of soot into the stratosphere, where it would circle the globe, blocking out sunlight and causing global climate disruption, agricultural collapse, and the death of more than 2 billion people through starvation in a nuclear winter. That's just a so-called limited nuclear war. A major nuclear war would mean the end of human civilization and most other life forms.

We also know from scientists and military planners who have done a lot of military war games, that even the use of just one nuclear weapon would result in an escalatory exchange of nuclear weapons that would end in all-out nuclear war, and again, the end of humanity.

So, the very existence of nuclear weapons poses a danger to every person and other life forms on this planet, every moment they continue to exist. And that is why ICAN, the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons, is arguing for the urgent elimination of nuclear weapons.

- While strategic and political risks of nuclear weapons are frequently discussed, the environmental and humanitarian consequences of their use or testing often remains underrepresented in public discourse. You mentioned it in your answer, but I would also like to talk about this, their long-term impacts. For example, the environmental contamination to multi-generational health issues. But we often hear that populist politicians manipulate public perception that we need nuclear weapons because of national security and they are building a political electorate for themselves. But in reality, nuclear weapons are posing a huge threat to all of humanity. Against the backdrop of these increasing risks, what strategic work does ICAN aim to undertake to inform more people?

- Well, for decades, the narrative around nuclear weapons was controlled by those who have them. And you referred to this message, that nuclear weapons provide stability and security and they are keeping us safe. But in fact, that has resulted in a disregard for the enormous harm that has been caused from nuclear weapons, not only to people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but also from the more than 2,000 nuclear weapons tests that have been carried out around the world from Algeria to Kazakhstan, from Nevada to Australia and the Pacific Islands, for example. Those tests have left a terrible legacy of health impacts, radiation caused cancers, birth defects and so on in succeeding generations. So, this is an issue that is not just an historical event, but it is actually an ongoing injustice to today. And those nuclear armed states have still not acknowledged or recognized or compensated or remediated those lands. It is really a huge injustice that we want to remedy. That's why we have banded together with other people in civil society.

We have got more than 700 partner organizations that make up ICAN and we work with governments who don't have nuclear weapons to talk about the consequences, the humanitarian and environmental consequences of nuclear weapons. It was ICAN's work in highlighting those catastrophic humanitarian environmental consequences, as well as helping to get a new treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons adopted at the UN General Assembly with the support of 122 countries that enabled the treaty to come into being. And for that, ICAN received a Nobel Peace Prize in 2017. 

So, that treaty is a game changer in the area of disarmament, which had been stalled for decades. The treaty provides for the comprehensive prohibition of nuclear weapons, a time-bound verifiable pathway for nuclear-armed states to disarm. And it also provides uniquely for victim assistance and environmental remediation for those people who have been harmed by nuclear weapons and those environments that have been harmed. It is really the only bright spot in the area of nuclear disarmament. So, we are encouraging countries that have not yet joined the treaty to join the treaty, including Azerbaijan. We are looking forward to Azerbaijan taking that important step to join the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons. We already have half the world's countries that have joined this treaty and we are looking forward to others taking up that step.

We also work with cities to get the message out in different countries about the need for the government to join the treaty. So, major cities like New York, Washington, D.C., Paris, Rome, just last week, Athens, Berlin, Sydney, all of these cities are saying to their governments, “we want you to join this treaty”. We also work with financial institutions to ensure that they are not investing in nuclear weapons and that has been very successful.

We are asking people to take action. There are so many things that individuals can do to take action, to urge their countries to get involved in nuclear disarmament. For example, by urging your pension funds or your banks to not invest in nuclear weapons, to speak to your local governments and ask them to join the Cities Appeal.

We also have an “Artists Against the Bomb” program. So, artists prepare artworks to show why nuclear weapons are bad, why we need to eliminate them.

We also work with parliamentarians from different countries to raise awareness and political support for the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

And of course, I mean, obviously, one of our main responsibilities is to educate the public about the risks and the consequences of nuclear weapons and to try to get people involved in action on this subject themselves.

- Indeed, the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons is a historical achievement. As you mentioned, ICAN was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2017 for its efforts in promoting it. But unfortunately, nuclear-armed states continue to ignore this treaty. What action is ICAN taking to encourage these states to join the treaty? And what role can civil society, public figures and political activists in those countries play to support this goal?

- Well, ICAN was basically born in Melbourne, Australia, in 2007. It was a small group of people sitting around a kitchen table asking themselves what they could do to rid the world of the world's worst weapons, given the failure of the nuclear-armed states to disarm in accordance with their international legal obligations. So, they decided to set up a campaign based on the earlier campaigns, successful campaigns to ban landmines and cluster munitions. The idea is that you ban these inhumane weapons and then they become morally and legally unacceptable to use.

When you say, “what do we do towards the nuclear-armed states?”, the whole purpose of having this treaty is because the nuclear-armed states were refusing to disarm. This is what the rest of the world can do to put pressure on those nuclear-armed states. It is mainly driven by countries from the Global South, which is fantastic. It is democratising the nuclear weapons debate by taking it out of the hands of the permanent five of the UN Security Council, who are all nuclear-armed states, bringing it into the General Assembly, where every country has an equal vote. The smallest country has the same vote as the largest country in the General Assembly. That's why it is important that every country that does not have nuclear weapons supports this treaty. Because it will put pressure on the nuclear-armed states and their allies.

And I think the success of ICAN, within 10 years of being established, had won the Nobel Peace Prize, is a testament to what civil society can achieve. I mean, as anthropologist Margaret Mead once said, “Never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has”.

You know, it is about getting together with like-minded people, being organised and taking concrete actions, rather than thinking, “Oh, this nuclear weapons, it is so scary and it is so hard. What can I as an individual do?” The antidote to a sense of hopelessness and helplessness is action. You know, it is about writing to your elected officials and demanding that they join, that they speak about the treaty and support the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

It is about, as I said, taking action with cities, getting them to join the ICAN Cities Appeal. It is about talking to your banks and making sure there is no investments in nuclear weapons. It is about joining campaigns like ICAN and there are others around the world. There are lots of young people being mobilised to work on these issues too. Because nuclear weapons are not separate from other global issues. They are very connected. Because nuclear weapons have a direct impact on human rights, on health, on the environment, on food security, on development.

Whatever your main issue of concern is, nuclear weapons should be a matter of interest to you. Because nuclear weapons can destroy everything and everyone we love. We all have a stake in this, and it is not something that should be just left to the so-called experts and security people to talk about. This is something that concerns every human being.

The nuclear-armed states and their allies sometimes try to portray the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons as a soft humanitarian approach that is not based on real security. But the fact is that catastrophic humanitarian and environmental consequences are very much about security. The fact is that the destruction of the environment, of the economy, of infrastructure, the death of millions of people through blast burns and radiation and billions of people through starvation and nuclear winter is very much a matter of security.

I think the real question is, how sustainable is a security approach that is based on weapons, any use of which would not only be genocidal, but also suicidal? So, it is those countries that have the nuclear weapons that are putting the rest of the world at risk. I think it is incumbent on every country that is not one of those nuclear-armed states. Well, of course, we want the nuclear-armed states to join the treaty ultimately. But in the meantime, let's everyone else get together and say to those nuclear-armed states, this is not acceptable. You are endangering the entire world. You do not have the right to do that.

- I think that our audience is also interested in the gendered aspects of the nuclear negotiations. Because research shows that women remain underrepresented in the nuclear negotiations and security policy discussions, despite the UN's emphasis on the importance of gender equality in strengthening peace processes. Including women in dialogue can make decision-making more inclusive and lead to a more realistic assessment of risks. What are your thoughts on the role of women in disarmament campaigns, particularly those driven by humanitarian concerns?

- Well, thank you. It is an absolutely critical question. It is really interesting to note that the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons was championed and supported by women at every stage of the process. Women led in civil society movements to ban nuclear weapons. Women led in the countries that supported the nuclear ban treaty. There was a woman president presiding over the meeting that adopted the UN treaty.

You know, this area is underrepresented. If you look at the so-called security fora and disarmament fora, it is mainly middle-aged to old white men that are talking about nuclear weapons and saying how great they are. It is an area that does not have a lot of women in it.

But our campaign is really led by women. It has a lot of affected community members who are women, and they are very powerful. When Hinamoeura Cross from French Polynesia got up to speak at the UN just earlier this year, there has been successive generations of her family all impacted by cancers and birth defects. She herself has leukemia. And when she was speaking, she said it was her baby boy's birthday. But she had chosen to be at this meeting because she wanted to put his future first. So, she was doing it for her children and for everybody else's children.

And I think it is really important in this 80th anniversary year of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that we remember that. You know, the hibakusha, those Japanese survivors of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who have survived today, -  like Nihon Hidankyo, who received the Nobel Peace Prize last year, - they were just children at the time of the atomic bombings. Those bombings killed at least 38,000 children, children who could in no way be blamed for anything. And yet there they were, the victims of a nuclear bomb.

I mean, this is an area where I think women often can contribute a democratising impact on a policy debate. This is a prime example, this Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons of how that has happened. It would be instructive for your community, your audience to get involved in this campaign. And particularly if you are a young person, if you are a woman, you know, you are most welcome and you can contribute a lot.

- Well, indeed, actually, people are always curious about personal stories. But as a woman, what brought you to the nuclear disarmament field?

- Well, I have been fighting against injustice my whole life. And to me, there is no greater injustice against humanity and the planet than nuclear weapons. I first learned about nuclear weapons in connection with the British nuclear weapons testing that was happening in my state, home state of Western Australia. Then they did it in South Australia as well. And those bombs had a terrible impact on the Indigenous populations of those areas and also on military veterans. Those people are still suffering till today. Those who are still alive and their children and their children's children continue to suffer. They continue to be blocked out of their lands and unable to eat their traditional foods because of the contamination from the nuclear bombs. The Marshall Islands was a place where the U.S. tested a lot of its nuclear weapons when the Marshall Islands was a protectorate of the United States. So, the U.S. was meant to be protecting it, but instead was using it for its testing. Those people have been permanently locked out of their atolls. They are forced now to live in urban slums where they cannot practice their traditional foods and culture. They have got to eat these imported foods. It is causing chronic disease that they never had before. The environment is totally contaminated, the marine environment.

And there is actually a dome on one of the atolls. It is a crater that was caused by a nuclear weapon. The U.S. filled it up with high-level radioactive nuclear waste in the 1970s. They covered it over with a concrete dome. They call it the Runit Dome. That dome is now cracking and radioactive waste is going into the Pacific Ocean. And that's just an example of how nuclear weapons have not only been an issue of colonial injustice, a terrible human rights impact legacy, but also damage to health, damage to the environment, damage to food security. It has just been an example of all these issues coming together in one place, where you can see how this is sort of cascading, multiplication of impacts from nuclear weapons that continues to this day. So, it is not just some historical thing. It is actually a real living problem for today.

A lot of the things I should mention. Because people will raise it with you, is, well, we have not had use of nuclear weapons since World War II. So, why are they a problem? Well, firstly, we have had use of nuclear weapons since World War II, since all of these tests have been carried out since then. More than 2,000 of them around the world that continue to cause terrible impacts to millions of people and environments. And I've just forgotten what I was going to say there.

So we have had this. Oh, yes.

And the other thing is that we have almost come to tragedy, catastrophe on many, many occasions. So, not just the Cuban Missile Crisis, but there have been many other instances of nuclear accidents and near misses where the world could have ended, but for dumb luck. We cannot rely on luck to last forever when it comes to nuclear weapons. Particularly now, as we are seeing more artificial intelligence being integrated into nuclear weapons systems, which speeds up decision making, and there is the potential for false information to be used in those decisions.

So, it is a very dangerous situation, as well as the general volatile climate that exists in the world right now. All of this means that it is very urgent that we eliminate nuclear weapons before they eliminate us.

- Unfortunately, this year is marked by intensifying wars and increasing risks of nuclear conflicts, but also we mark the 80th anniversary of the invention and the use of the nuclear weapons in New Mexico, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. ICAN has launched the “80 Years is Enough” campaign to mark this milestone. Can you please elaborate, give more information to our audience? What is “80 Years is Enough” action?

- Yeah, thank you. Well, we are going to New Mexico for the 80th anniversary of Trinity, which was the very first nuclear weapons detonation. It was the subject of the film Oppenheimer. Because we want to acknowledge where it all started, and to acknowledge the damage and injury that has been done to those people who live in that area in New Mexico, where Trinity was exploded - Indigenous peoples and local, mainly Hispanic communities - and to show that solidarity with them. And to note that from New Mexico, there was then the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and then the more than 2,000 nuclear weapons tests.

So, Trinity, New Mexico, was really where the nuclear age started. That's why we are going there in July, just next month. Then we will be going to Hiroshima and Nagasaki to hear from the Hibakusha, to speak, and to bring awareness to the catastrophic humanitarian and environmental consequences of nuclear weapons. Then we will go to South Korea, because 10% of the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were actually Korean people who were in Japan at the time. That is not widely known, and it is really important that we talk about it.

And I should mention, there is a widely held myth that the atomic bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were what ended World War II, and that is not true. It is a myth that's put about American propaganda. In fact, what we know this from, from diaries, meeting notes from Japan of the major generals and that the reason Japan surrendered was because the Soviet Union entered the war against Japan and at that moment they decided to surrender. So, not because of the nuclear bombings.

There was nothing good about the atomic bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There was nothing good about nuclear weapons since their invention. As even Ronald Reagan recognized, nuclear weapons are “totally irrational, totally inhumane, good for nothing but killing and possibly destructive of life on earth”. And that really sums it up. I mean the experts, the scientists who developed these weapons are the ones most against them and that should tell you something.

- Every time, in the end, we ask Kitabistan’s traditional question about the book recommendations, but this time I would like to pose this question in a slightly different way. If you could show just one picture or photograph, or recommend a film or a book to the leader of the nuclear-armed country to change their perspective on nuclear weapons, what would it be?

- Ah, let me just show you something. I have got photos here.

Well, for a start let me recommend a book by Annie Jacobsen called “Nuclear War: A Scenario”. She is a US journalist and this is a best-selling book that is going to be made into a movie next year by Denis Villeneuve, the director of the Dune movies. That book sets out the story of how even just one nuclear weapon will start this exchange of nuclear weapons and how you can go from normality to the end of the world in 72 minutes. She goes through second by second, minute by minute, how a nuclear war would unfold and it is very good reading but also pretty scary, and it is all true. It is all based on meticulous research by Annie Jacobsen. So, I recommend that book.

But also this is something that we worked on to show the connections you know that it is everything that will be impacted in a nuclear war. So, you can see these are two baby kangaroos on a beach in Australia and basically we say you know “Every species will be harmed in a nuclear war. Only one species can stop it”. And it is not the kangaroos.

So, that’s our “Artists Against the Bomb” project that we have. We will have an exhibition in Geneva in August where there will be posters like that with different messages about nuclear weapons. I think different messages resonate with different people. So, you have got to try a variety of approaches to get through to people but I think it is really important to focus on the stories of those who have suffered from nuclear weapons. Because they are the real experts in what nuclear weapons do. Also to talk to people about this to get the message out. Because a lot of people think that the danger around nuclear weapons went away with the end of the Cold War. But it didn't. And what is more it is much more dangerous now than it was then. At least then you know the countries were talking to each other. Now there is this optimal, huge amount of mistrust and miscommunications and misunderstandings. And so that makes it very easy for mistakes to happen and misunderstandings to occur and a nuclear war can very easily start by accident. And we do not want that to happen.

- Your answer was very impressive for me actually and thank you very much for this insightful conversation.

- Oh my pleasure. And the other thing, the other image that I would want to show leaders is the famous image of a nuclear cloud, a mushroom cloud which in fact is not the bomb, that is actually made up of all the people and other things that have already been vaporized. That's what is in the mushroom cloud. But I think what is most important is to draw people's attention to what is under the mushroom cloud. Because that is where the real story is about what nuclear weapons do. They destroy everything. Nobody wants that for their town, their city, their family and that is what we are fighting for. We are fighting for everyone's right basically to exist, and I hope that you and all of your listeners and watchers will join us in this.

- Thank you madam Melissa Parke. Thank you very much.

- Thank you.

Malak Hajiyeva

30.06.2025