Our guest for this edition of the VeritasDialogues project is Lisbeth Pilegaard, the former executive director of the Danish Institute for Parties and Democracy and a Steering Member of the Network of Nordic Women Mediators.

In our interview, we posed intriguing questions to Ms. Pilegaard that will resonate with our viewers. We covered a range of important topics, including gender equality, democracy, human rights, the role of women in socio-political processes, disinformation, the dangers of information manipulation, and the ongoing fight against it.
We present to you an interview with Ms. Lisbeth Pilegaard.

- Ms. Lisbeth Pilegaard, first of all, thank you very much for taking your time for this interview. You are a foreign affairs expert specializing in democracy. You worked in more than 40 conflict-ridden countries with long-term missions to Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan.
And you also served as the executive director of the Danish Institute for Parties and Democracy. So, your insights today are very important at a time when authoritarianism poses a significant challenge and threat to democracies in several countries. So, I would like to start with my first question.
In 1975, the Helsinki Final Act was adopted and it played a significant role in helping the democratization processes in Eastern Europe. And to also help, to some extent, in preventing the repression of dissidents in the former Soviet Union. Why do you think there is a period of stagnation in the development of democracy in post-Soviet countries today?
 

- Well, first of all, thank you for having me and good to speak to you. Your question on specific former Soviet entities and countries, I would say that it's a global trend. Unfortunately, a global problem that there is a backsliding of democracy, not only in your part of the world, but also in other parts of the world. So, it's a global trend we are seeing. And what we are seeing is that it seems like the democracy that we have developed has not always been good enough to deliver the results that people wanted. Democracy takes time. It is in constant development. It is not a fixed system or formula. It is based on the people that live in that society, which we all need to contribute to.
And the transition, particularly for your part of the world, where you had a very different system of governance and the change that came since the 90s, has taken time. It has taken time to give the results that people want and need. And that's part of why people feel unsatisfied and frustrated is that things do not happen quick enough. So, the idea of having free elections, which is one part of democracy that is very important, but there are also many other parts of having free and independent institutions, having free expression, having basically to live your life as you want to do in a society and a society that takes care of you, where there are institutions that uphold your rights and so on. That process has taken a lot of time also for Azerbaijan and for other countries. And that makes people dissatisfied. When people are dissatisfied, they look for other solutions. And here we have the whole rise of populism, of autocrats jumping in and, let's say, offering cheap solutions of how a society could look like. And I say cheap because I mean that, because it's not cheap and nothing is cheap, and you cannot create a perfect society out of controlling it. But that's some of the development that has happened, that people have looked to so-called strong leaders and thought that they could give them a better life. 
 

- Let's talk about women's participation in the democratic changes and democratic reforms. In 2022, Mahsa Amini's tragic death sparked the global movement, and it also highlighted the intersection of gender equality, democracy and human rights. How do you perceive the role of women in leading democratic change and what can be done to empower and protect them in such challenging environments?
 

- I don't know if everyone knows, but you're talking about Iran and the developments that happened in Iran, which are still happening. Lots of women are still on the streets there and protesting in different ways against what they call gender apartheid, that they simply cannot live freely in their own society just because they're a woman, and that they're being controlled in any form and shape, which is very unfortunate. We also see it in Afghanistan, and we see many brave women outside of the country fighting for better rights.
Women's rights and women's possibility to influence society has always been contested and challenged. In some way, it is very odd that we do not have a society that reckons that both men and women could contribute to our societies. I feel a bit frustrated and depressed that we still have to have these conversations of why it matters to have 50% of the population taking part in our societies. For me, it is just logic, and it would also be logic if I was a man. I would want everyone in a society to contribute and be part of it, no matter who they are and what they represent.
Just to put that on the line, I have met many great women, democratic fighters around the world, and they are still there. We need to continue supporting them, because they are the ones that are pushing the boundaries and trying to push the societies to understand that if we invite women into the table in any form, it will actually contribute to the development of the societies.
It’s proven by several researchers that if you diversify, for example, your business, your office, you have representation as broad as possible, you will make a better business, you will similarly make more money. So, it is, for me, simple logic that both men and women should participate. That is not the issue, and it's also an issue about power.
Men have had the power and dominated our public societies for many, many years. So, if we need to see a change, the men will also need to share that power with women, and I think that is one of the issues that is difficult. Empowering women, I am also a bit tired of that expression, because I think women are strong and clever and smart, and we don't need to be empowered, but we need a space, and we need a space at the table to sit among the rest of society, which are the men, and take the decisions that are needed, that is in public life, in politics, in the media sector, in all sectors of life. We need a better balance between men and women. And that seems to be a challenge.
I also sit in the Nordic Women's Mediators Network that tries to push for having more women into peace processes. And here we have a set of statistics that there's only a very few percentage of women who take part in peace processes, from the negotiations team to all the other aspects of peace processes. And it is proven that if women take part in peace processes and peace agreements, those peace agreements last longer. They are simply more sustainable, they are more durable. So, it makes sense. But again, men need to step aside and leave a space for women there at the table.
 

- We know that conflicts often weaken democratic institutions, and it also intensifies authoritarian tendencies. According to your experience, how do you believe ongoing conflicts shape the democratic trajectories of these nations, and what role can the peacebuilding initiatives play in reversing this trend?
 

- Well, as I said, if we have a better gender representation also in peace processes, we get better peace. And it is a constant struggle to convince those that are leading those processes to invite women into taking part and doing it formally. Many places, they set up women's commissions or women's wings, but it is like on the side, it is not in the core of the power and where decisions are being made. And maybe an aspect of this, why it matters to have women into those processes and to reduce conflict and quickly move into a more peaceful society, is that perhaps women have another aspect of what is important for society.
I don't like to generalize that women are more peaceful than men, but they have another aspect of how they view society. They view the community, they think about the society around them and what matters. So, it is about the social infrastructure, it is about how to get a society functioning, and not only about fighting about resources and access and power.
So, to have that combination of having both men and women in processes would help and limit the amount of conflicts. What we see with the conflicts around the world, it is often led by men, and we need more women to help stop those conflicts and make them more peaceful.
Maybe to mention some examples here from the Nordic countries of having quite early female political leaders has made a difference. Iceland was the first to have a female president in 1980. I mean, it is amazing, it was not so long ago, but that was the first country to have such a thing. And we have several female prime ministers in the Nordic countries.
Again, I am not saying that women are more peaceful generally, but they do have another aspect they bring to the table, and they have a concern for their constituency, for their society and for their families, that I think is important for making peace in the world.
 

- Now we hear words like disinformation, information manipulation and propaganda so often, and they are used to undermine democracies. I would say that the 2024 European Parliament elections is a good example of this attempt. So, how can governments and organizations fight disinformation, information manipulation, while protecting the freedom of expression?
 

- It is a very good question, because I think this is one of the really key challenges for our democracies and the development of democracies. Disinformation and misinformation are really an enemy, an enemy of democracy and an enemy of having solid, peaceful societies. And it has being used and misused, particularly by non-democrats and autocrats, in such an instance that we are still now just seeing the tip of the iceberg of how it impacts our lives. But it is happening every day, and we are all victims to it, It is happening everywhere in our society. One aspect that is really important is education and access to education. Not only for bouncing back for this disinformation and misinformation, but in general to create solid democratic societies it really helps to have an educated population. 
So, getting quality education and having access to it makes societies thrive. When people are educated, they can make better decisions. And then you can say, particularly for this digital misinformation and disinformation and the propaganda we are being exposed to here. We all need to be digitally educated. And to understand what it is that we see and hear might not be the truth, and with all the AI that is coming up and also challenging our reality. There's really a need for us to educate. And then we need watchdogs and organizations that look into this information and help us understand when it is not real. And we need to do that, for all of us, but particularly for the young people that are massively being exposed to all kinds of information.
 

- I mentioned before that you served as the executive director of the Danish Institute for Parties and Democracy and you worked extensively to support and to strengthen political parties. We know that in authoritarian regimes, political parties and civil society organizations are mainly organized or controlled by governments. And it also leaves little room for genuine opposition. So, of course, we can't expect any meaningful change in that kind of environment. What strategies do you believe should be employed to identify GONGOs and genuine civil society organizations, genuine political parties, opposition parties and the organized - government controlled political parties?
 

- Yeah, well, it is an aspect that adds to your description of the complexity of the world we live in, that everyone has become much more smarter and clever in how to manipulate societies. So, yes, you have GONGOs, you have so-called organizations that are dominated by one political party or by an authoritarian leader. But I do see many organizations, even in very repressive regimes, doing great work. Some have to find new strategies to be able to operate within the regime and some will have to leave and are outside the country and are doing it as a diaspora, as dissidents from another part, because simply it is too unsafe to be inside the country.
Access to information is essential. So, finding technical ways of providing independent media to people I think is very important. I have seen many examples of great independent media platforms who are really finding new ways of how they can communicate and disseminate news and information, also under a very repressive regime. So, it is a fight for information and it is a fight for preventing the manipulation that is happening.
Luckily, I do see it, but as you said, it is a bit of a jungle. And every one of us who works with supporting different institutions, we spend a lot of time scrutinizing and making sure that we are supporting those that are really working for democracy.

- My last question is a traditional one, which I always ask to all my interviewees. What book would you recommend to Kitabistan readers to read?

- Yes, what book would I recommend? One book, that's really, really challenging. I think I would recommend the books of Desmond Tutu. He's a South African priest who died not so long ago, but who was occupied in trying to make the world a better place, and who was occupied also with democracy and with freedom of expression.
O, afrikalı keşişdir. Bir müddət əvvəl vəfat edib. O, dünyanı daha yaxşı bir yerə çevirmək üçün çalışan, həmçinin demokratiya və ifadə azadlığı ilə məşğul olan bir şəxs idi.
And he was particularly occupied with how we live with each other and show kindness and acceptance and forgiveness.
I am not a very particular religious person, but I find his thinking and his advice to us as human beings very well put.
 

- Thank you very much for your answers and for taking the time for this interview.
 

- That is my pleasure. Thank you.

Malak Hajiyeva

23.01.2025